Free Will?
Generate
Before the Fall:
1. Humans had the built in, innate ability to choose to continue in their innocence...or to disobey.
2. Humans pleased God with their continual free choice to obey...until they freely chose not to obey.
After the Fall:
1. The Fall changed the free will dynamic.
2. The result of Adam and Eve's choice to sin was the loss of innocence...and the loss of spiritual life.
3. The first thing Adam and Eve freely chose to do after the Fall was to run from God and hide. God had to come looking for them.
4. In the context of God's giving out the Curse...He also provided a hint at a provision that was coming someday...a provision that would be initiated by the Creator (Gen.3:15).
5. One of the net effects of the giving of the Law of God to Israel was to make clear that humans are incapable of pleasing their way back into favor with God...by their own free choice. Humans proved themselves failures in the light of God's law. Even those who by their free choice decided to follow it (Ex.19:3-8) ended up totally failing.
6. The Old Testament could be read, one might argue, both as a display of the failure of humans as they consistently and freely chose to change, forget, distort and disobey God's Law... and it could be read as the story of the continually unfolding - from veiled hint to reality - God's free choice to pursue humanity with a view to redemption.
7. In the New Testament we see Jesus as the fulfillment of all that had been hinted at and prophesied about in the Old Testament. God was indeed the One who came to "seek and save the lost."
So what about Free Will in the modern context?
1. Humans are spiritually dead...that is, our Free Choices even are rooted in selfishness and pride.
2. Humans left to themselves will, like Adam and Eve, continually run from a holy God (Rom.1).
3. Humans must be awakened to the truth of the gospel by the work of the Holy Spirit by means of the hearing of the Word of God.
4. Humans are called upon to make a free choice to follow Jesus...and, if they so choose to believe and follow Him - becoming His disciple -they subsequently find out that it was "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" (Rom.9:16) and that even their repentance and faith are a gift from God so they can never boast (Eph.2:8-9).
What follows is a quote from the Holman Christian Standard Bible: Everyone Can Receive the Gift - New Testament:
"Why Me? Why Now? How God draws you to Himself
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him." John 6:44
"Calling your conversion experience a decision for Christ doesn't begin to convey the truth of the matter. Yes, you made a decision based on your own free will. Yes, you were perfectly free to make a different choice than you did. But look at the whole thing on balance-from God's perspective-and suddenly your decision to follow Jesus looks a lot less like a bold move on your part and a lot more like a stunning victory on His part. He fashioned everything there is about you in His own mind. He set you in a particular time and place. He's been carefully arranging people, situations, and events in your life, waving His arms in front of your face, pleading with you to look back, to see the cross, to know the love that paid every last dime on your escalating debt of sins, to experience more freedom and joy and peace and contentment than you ever thought possible. Looks like your hardest decision was trying to say no all this time."
Should you desire more thought provoking reading on this subject please consider looking up the link on Pastor Rick's blog www.roadwetravel.blogspot.com or check out the following article by Martin Luther at the following link: http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm
Look forward to your insights or comments that you make by your own free choice. :)
Before the Fall:
1. Humans had the built in, innate ability to choose to continue in their innocence...or to disobey.
2. Humans pleased God with their continual free choice to obey...until they freely chose not to obey.
After the Fall:
1. The Fall changed the free will dynamic.
2. The result of Adam and Eve's choice to sin was the loss of innocence...and the loss of spiritual life.
3. The first thing Adam and Eve freely chose to do after the Fall was to run from God and hide. God had to come looking for them.
4. In the context of God's giving out the Curse...He also provided a hint at a provision that was coming someday...a provision that would be initiated by the Creator (Gen.3:15).
5. One of the net effects of the giving of the Law of God to Israel was to make clear that humans are incapable of pleasing their way back into favor with God...by their own free choice. Humans proved themselves failures in the light of God's law. Even those who by their free choice decided to follow it (Ex.19:3-8) ended up totally failing.
6. The Old Testament could be read, one might argue, both as a display of the failure of humans as they consistently and freely chose to change, forget, distort and disobey God's Law... and it could be read as the story of the continually unfolding - from veiled hint to reality - God's free choice to pursue humanity with a view to redemption.
7. In the New Testament we see Jesus as the fulfillment of all that had been hinted at and prophesied about in the Old Testament. God was indeed the One who came to "seek and save the lost."
So what about Free Will in the modern context?
1. Humans are spiritually dead...that is, our Free Choices even are rooted in selfishness and pride.
2. Humans left to themselves will, like Adam and Eve, continually run from a holy God (Rom.1).
3. Humans must be awakened to the truth of the gospel by the work of the Holy Spirit by means of the hearing of the Word of God.
4. Humans are called upon to make a free choice to follow Jesus...and, if they so choose to believe and follow Him - becoming His disciple -they subsequently find out that it was "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" (Rom.9:16) and that even their repentance and faith are a gift from God so they can never boast (Eph.2:8-9).
What follows is a quote from the Holman Christian Standard Bible: Everyone Can Receive the Gift - New Testament:
"Why Me? Why Now? How God draws you to Himself
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him." John 6:44
"Calling your conversion experience a decision for Christ doesn't begin to convey the truth of the matter. Yes, you made a decision based on your own free will. Yes, you were perfectly free to make a different choice than you did. But look at the whole thing on balance-from God's perspective-and suddenly your decision to follow Jesus looks a lot less like a bold move on your part and a lot more like a stunning victory on His part. He fashioned everything there is about you in His own mind. He set you in a particular time and place. He's been carefully arranging people, situations, and events in your life, waving His arms in front of your face, pleading with you to look back, to see the cross, to know the love that paid every last dime on your escalating debt of sins, to experience more freedom and joy and peace and contentment than you ever thought possible. Looks like your hardest decision was trying to say no all this time."
Should you desire more thought provoking reading on this subject please consider looking up the link on Pastor Rick's blog www.roadwetravel.blogspot.com or check out the following article by Martin Luther at the following link: http://www.reformedreader.org/bow.htm
Look forward to your insights or comments that you make by your own free choice. :)
posted by James Hunt at
4:39 PM
14 Comments:
But look at the whole thing on balance-from God's perspective-and suddenly your decision to follow Jesus looks a lot less like a bold move on your part and a lot more like a stunning victory on His part.
Doesn't this "victory" imply the possibility of defeat? My brain just isn't big enough to take in all that is in view here: God's sovreign purpose in election and my choice in the matter. If I couldn't have come to the decision on my own, being dead, then shouldn't we dispense with all this silly talk of choice? But without choice there can't be a true love relationship; we are merely following a pre-programmed course. My brain is leaking out of my ears. Help me.
Jesus loves me, this I know. For the Bible tells me so.
By
Wes Kenney, at 5:19 PM
Sure...I concede to your point. "Victory" may, as you wrote, "imply the possibility of defeat." Another fault of the article can be seen in the sentence immediately preceding the one you referenced: "Yes, you were perfectly free to make a different choice than you did."
Don't worry...it leaks out my ears too. (smile).
It seems that there are two perspectives in Scripture. One is humanity's. Basically, it's the call: "ya'll come...drink freely." The sinner that actually takes notice of this call, and it's obvious that most don't, and choose to drink of that heavenly water of salvation subsequently, as they mature in discipleship, discover another perspective...namely, that God enabled them to make the "free-will choice."
I believe that one of the best articles I've read on this distressing/comforting [depending on one's perspective] is the one by Luther that I referenced in my original post.
One thought: God decided that He would not allow the entire human race to be destroyed eternally. So, He therefore decreed by His soveriegn purpose to make sure that many were brought into a love relationship with Him. The root of that love relationship with Him is not the sinner's free-will choice to be saved...it's instead rooted in the love of the Savior. We love Him, truly, because He first loved us...and acted upon it.
If I am powerless mangled in a car wreck and someone comes up to the car and says, "Get out...I'm a doctor and I want to save you from certain death;" Am I going to get myself out and be saved? No, I'm trapped and will continue to be until my final breath. However, if that same doctor gives me the ability to get out of the car with the jaws of life...tenderly picks me up and brings me to a place of healing then I'll live. Will my love and appreciation for that doctor be less because he not only desired to help me...but ensured that I was helped?
Of course, as with any analogy this one is imperfect. Perhaps it will help some.
By
James Hunt, at 9:59 AM
I haven't read the entire article by Luther that you referenced, because I'm lazy. Actually, I just haven't had time to sit down and really take it in. I'm away at a conference today and tomorrow, and I plan to read it when I get back to the office. Also, I'm lazy.
But after reading the intro, skimming the contents, and reading the conclusion, my first thought is, "No wonder no one ever invited me to a Lutheran Church." It seems we are nothing more than robots. I know people who agree with those sentiments are involved in missionary efforts, and I find myself wondering why.
Reminds me of the Calvinist's response to being hit by a bus: "Sure glad that's overwith..."
By
Wes Kenney, at 10:36 PM
Wes,
I do appreciate your wry humor...and witty remarks.
Whew, glad that's over with.
Just kidding. Try out this other illustration:
If I'm an infant orphan living in my own waste, holed up in some god-forsaken, 3rd world country's orphanage...doomed to misery, despair and certainly death...
Then, one day a kind, rich benefactor walks into the orphanage, takes off my poop diaper and puts it on his head..takes off my filthy rags and puts them on himself...washes me clean and putting my filth on him...then picks me up, carries me into his world and saves my life by adopting me...did I have anything to do with that? Did he not choose to adopt me out of his own love and good grace? And, will I not freely choose to love him in return?
I think you get the analogy:
Orphan - me
Filth - my sin
Benefactor - Jesus
Adoption - God's family
Love - truly mine received and given back
Incidentally, doctrinally, Lutherans have come a long way since Luther. Most probably wouldn't agree with the article he wrote...but a lot of Baptists and others would...including Jesus.
By
James Hunt, at 11:12 PM
This probably misses the point altogether, but what about the kid next to you? Does he get left there? If asked, I'll bet he would want to go, too. My problem is with believing that the benefactor's willingness to put on your filthiness extends only to you (and whatever other infants he selects), leaving in the orphanage other children in the same condition who would gladly leave with him, given the opportunity.
So you can tell which part of the TU*IP I prefer to leave in the garden. Of course, that's not what started this discussion, it was the "I", but they are frighteningly interconnected, are they not? And, taken together, I fail to see any conclusion being possible other than that God is the ultimate author of evil. I have trouble going there.
But then, I have trouble tying my shoes some days.
Thanks for the conversation...
By
Wes Kenney, at 2:59 PM
Wes,
I think Paul anticipated your concern. Check it out:
"What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy." Rom.9:14-16.
Of course I recognize that some people interpret election talk in Romans 9 as referring to Israel only...however, it is important to look at the broader point he's trying to make...namely, that God has elected some out of Israel and also out of the Gentiles as "objects of mercy" vv.23-24.
How about this:
Limited in efficiency
Unlimited in sufficiency
Limited in that the atonement actually in reality takes away the sin of the elect
Unlimited in sufficiency in that the atonement is powerful and sufficient enough to cover all...
It's just obvious that "all" don't come through the narrow way. Why don't they? Is it because the general call and invitation for salvation is falling on ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see unless made alive by the life of Christ?
By the way...as Spurgeon would say, we meet at the foot of the cross. We're brothers.
And...love the pic. I assume that's you as a young'un. So glad God chose to have you put that on the site. :)
James
By
James Hunt, at 5:15 PM
I have always felt that the average person who is stronly Calvinistic in their doctrine isn't far away from those who are skeptical, and that there is a good deal of semantics involved. Your efficiency/sufficiency argument may be an example of this. I certainly agree that someone dead in sin cannot do anything to make themselves alive. But I'm not entirely comfortable with the full ramifications of that.
In Romans 1, Paul talks about people who knew God, yet did not glorify Him as God. And according to verse 28, because of their choice, God "delivered them over." Did he do this because of their choice, or because of a choice He made before the foundations of the world?
And why would Jesus counsel His hearers to agonizomai to come through that narrow way, if they were indeed helpless to make the choice?
God may have chosen to have me put that picture on the site, but it was my mother's sovreign will that resulted in that hat being on my head.......
By
Wes Kenney, at 8:52 PM
God's got a "problem" either way you look at it:
1. God in His omniscience knows in advance all those who will freely choose Him and so He elects them for salvation...yet still ordains that the rest will be born...whom He knows will certainly live in eternal damnation.
2. God in His omniscience knows in advance all that will be saved...because He chooses to elect out of the pool of humanity certain ones in particular...passing over the rest.
In the first case...why would God allow people to be born that He knew wouldn't choose Him...so He didn't choose them?
In the second case...why would God choose some and pass over the others?
Answer: Who has known the mind of the Lord? God's wisdom looks like foolishness to men.
And, to specifically make comment to your questions: Both perspectives are accurate...though they seem to be an oxymoron, of sorts.
God did deliver them over because of their sinful choice, free-will choice, to sin and go deeper into degradation. And, God, before the creation of the world knew they would do this and chose to create them anyway...as vessels of wrath, as Romans 9 describes.
The Narrow Way: He also recognized that only some had ears to hear and eyes to see. He also said that no one can come to the Father except that He, Jesus, chooses to reveal it to him.
Just because someone can't respond to a general call to come to the Narrow way doesn't diminish the nature of the call. It demonstrates two-fold both the inability to answer the call without God's enablement...as well as demonstrates the heart of God for all His creatures. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked..and desires that all come to repentance.
But it's true that not all do come to repentance and that some die in their wickedness. Does this mean that at some level man has the mastery over who gets saved and who doesn't? Are we going to believe that at some level God has done all He can do..and, "golly I hope they'll be smart enough to choose Me?"
Again, I really do believe that people freely choose to follow Christ or to not follow Christ.
The people who freely choose to not follow Christ have made a natural decision. It's one that is normal for their nature and sin pre-disposition.
Those who freely choose to follow Christ do so because they have been "called according to His purpose. For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...and those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified."
By the way, thanks for engaging in this conversation. I appreciate the brotherly banter, Cowboy.
James
By
James Hunt, at 12:52 PM
I thank God that these are not essential things we are discussing. I'm glad I had my seatbelt on when you took that turn in the middle of your last post. You were making a strong case for UE, then you said, "I really do believe..." Back to my brain size problem. Who has known indeed.
I heard someone on the radio today describing a practical implication of Arminianism, namely instead of praying to God for your uncle's salvation, you should be praying to your uncle to change his mind. This illustrates the ludicrousness of this position by taking it to an extreme. But on the other side, I've never seen 1 Timothy 2:4 convincingly dealt with. The Calvinist is left in the ridiculous position of saying that either God is not sovreign (He doesn't get what He wants) or the verse doesn't mean what it plainly says. And spare me the nonsense about it meaning that God desires that all elect men be saved. The text just doesn't support that view.
So let me just reassert what I know for sure:
Jesus loves me, this I know,
For the Bible tells me so.
You're jealous of my hat, aren't you?
By
Wes Kenney, at 4:05 PM
I agree with you. The text isn't saying that God desires only the elect to be saved. He has a Fatherly attitude toward all His creatures that manifests itself in desire, blessings, etc. We know that He rains on the just and the unjust, that is, He gives good things to the wicked and the saved. This is because He is a good God with good desires. (incidentally this works well into the verses mentioned in my previous post: He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ez.33:11 and 2Pet.3:9 - not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance)
He has more than a Fatherly attitude toward His elect...He has action. He purposed to choose out of the pool of the damned some that He would rescue. Does not the Judge remain just if He chooses to pardon whom He will and leaves the rest in their iniquity?
Those predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...He called, etc... You know the progression.
I wasn't aware that I'd taken a turn in my last post. I thought I was enhancing my argument. Oh well, guess I'm human...and not a great debater.
I do believe in UE. Don't you? Do you really believe E is conditioned upon man's soveriegnty as opposed to God's? Surely not.
The hat...yep. Jealous. It would go well with my boots.
By
James Hunt, at 5:06 PM
I do agree with unconditional election, because the alternative would be a works-based salvation. But I'm still not comfortable with your explainations on 1 Timothy 2:4. If by the elect we could mean those who respond to the drawing of the Spirit, and we could allow for the possibility of the Spirit drawing everybody at some point (Romans 1 - natural revelation), then I would be a lot more comfortable with the whole thing.
If the "wrath and indignation" of Romans 2:8 are indeed for those who "disobey the truth," does this not necessitate knowing about the truth, and is that not one of the ways the Spirit may draw someone? Verse 11 goes on in this context to say that there is no favoritism with God, but in your paragraph about the Judge remaining just (with which I agree), are you not describing favoritism of the highest order?
I was wearing white tennis shoes in that picture. Now I'm jealous...
By
Wes Kenney, at 5:34 PM
Wes said, "If the "wrath and indignation" of Romans 2:8 are indeed for those who "disobey the truth," does this not necessitate knowing about the truth"
Nope. Even in our human system of law we recognize that ignorance of the law doesn't mean that someone is not guilty.
Yep. Knowledge of the truth is certainly something the Holy Spirit uses to draw someone.
Favoritism...oops, got 'cha. :) If you look in context God is saying that He's going to not show favoritism toward the Jew or the Greek as it relates to blessing or to judgment. The point is that the Jews aren't superior in God's eyes to the Greeks on Judgment day. The argument is against a feeling of ethnic superiority.
Wes said, "If by the elect we could mean those who respond to the drawing of the Spirit, and we could allow for the possibility of the Spirit drawing everybody at some point (Romans 1 - natural revelation), then I would be a lot more comfortable with the whole thing."
You've really hit on 3 things:
1. Elect - of course you could mean those who respond favorably to the drawing of the Spirit...all those who have their names written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world will definately respond favorably to the drawing of the Spirit...as they're given the ability to do so.
2. Of course we could allow for the drawing of the Spirit for all people at some point, natural revelation...this is just as opposed to regeneration which opens up deaf ears and gives sight to the spiritually blind and new life to the spiritually dead giving the person faith to believe and repentance to turn from dead works to the living Savior. Natural revelation is given to all. Effectual calling is for the elect.
3. Your comfort level...well, this doctrine caused me much discomfort at one point in my life as I worked through it. It was downright painful.
On a different note...White tennis shoes? At least the hat's cool.
By
James Hunt, at 11:30 PM
I like your site James.
You know.... it's difficult for the mind to fathom that we're chosen as part of the elect before time began. That without being chosen we would never choose him. Yet we have the freewill to choose. Yet everybody that he chose also chooses him.
In human understanding when we run into what seems like a contradiction such as this... we can't understand it. For human understanding it has to be one or the other. Yet the bible teaches both doctrines. So I think this just highlights how much about God that we don't understand. Someday though.....
By
kjam22, at 8:15 AM
Ken,
What? You don't understand the apparent paradox?
Neither do I. Let's teach both doctrines...they're both in there.
James
By
James Hunt, at 7:57 PM
Post a Comment
<< Home